I can turn this around as saying that the lack of sales elsewhere was caused by a lack of contacts.

This is also more or less how Intel seems to have sold their Classmates (at least according to the reports).

Although this is not a pleasant thought, I think it is more true than I would like.

I have seen how much effort the EU commission (in the person of Neelie Kroes) has to put into opening up procurement of EU government contracts to open and transparent bids. That makes me rather pessimistic for the developing world.

Winter

Negroponte, like Intel, Microsoft and everyone else, will use his connections to push his offering. In all fairness to OLPC, they would be stupid not to use every resource at their disposal; after all, that's why all the big players do every day of the week.

The problem with OLPC is quite simple: the XO is not a finished product by any stretch of the imagination. Too many promises made (most of them unnecessary, stupid hype) with too many promises broken; just look at the debacle that the G1G1 program has been.

Negroponte would have been far more successful at this point if he had taken the time to do things right (like actually finishing and testing the XO) instead of relying on hype, lies and political connections.

The project is dying while Negroponte is merrily doing the rounds spreading the same ineffectual hype that got him in trouble in the first place. Somebody needs to tell him he is his own worst enemy. The OLPC project is headed in exactly the same direction that Media Lab Europe and MediaLab Asia - both grandiose Negroponte projects that failed miserably by lack of substance after many rounds of broken promises, just like OLPC - headed.

Follow the links for very enlightening reading. See a pattern?

MediaLab Europe
http://blog.whoisireland.com/index.php?p=23

MediaLab Asia

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v423/n6937/full/423213b.html

While it was running, MIT Media Lab Europe (Negroponte & Bender) "refused to tell ministers how many people it employed, what they were paid, or to provide audited accounts", according to the Sunday Times, but it did manage to award them substantial severance payments when time ran out.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/leader/0,1000002982,39279997,00.htm

If the above sounds familiar, it is because you could easily replace a few names and see how Negroponte is doing the exact same thing with OLPC:

"While it has been running, OLPC "refuses to tell OLPC supporters how many people it employed, what they were paid, or to provide audited accounts", according to the New York Times, but it did manage to award Mary Lou Jepsen substantial severance payment (free use of OLPC patents) when her time ran out."

@Irvin:
"The project is dying while Negroponte is merrily doing the rounds spreading the same ineffectual hype that got him in trouble in the first place."

Interesting observation. Any concrete evidence to complement your wishful thinking?

It is not that OLPCnews or the Forums are petering out. Nor do I see many damning reports of how bad the XO is. People like Michael Tiemann and Dan Bricklin seem to love their XOs. These are not exactly the inexperienced, gullible types.

The press coverage is also not that bad. Intel didn't even show up at Davos to show off their Classmates, but Negroponte was there. And the big laptops providers are going in the direction of the OLPC:
http://olpc.tv/2008/01/23/lenovo-ceo-wants-to-launch-250-laptop-in-the-next-18-months/

So I wait for some facts to follow your wishes?

Winter

Dying Irvin? Really? Already? You seem to dislike Negroponte. That's fair, as his track record isn't stellar. Nowadays OLPC isn't about him anymore, nor does it live and die by his whimsy. It is unfair to say "OLPC = Dear Leader now and forever amen." Besides, he might move on to something else in a couple years anyway. I doubt OLPC will sublimate into the ether.

I'd say Dear Leader has assembled a rather capable staff this time, with focused goals and incremental improvement in mind. Pilot programs and real research are happening and the old "OMG Teh Laptop Fickses-es EVERTHING" attitude has left the premises. They are working WITH educators and encouraging volunteers now, at least according to the mailing lists.

By the way Irvin, I may be one of the few who appreciates your criticism when it doesn't steer toward invective. I sincerely hope you are independent and speaking only for yourself.

@Irvin:
"(free use of OLPC patents)"

Nice catch, but where does it say that she does not simple has to pay a license fee like everybody else?

That is what Mary-Lou claims. As far as I remember, the previous NY times article you quoted was mostly repeating YOUR accusations from OLPCnews.

My experience is that if it is printed in a newspaper, it is bound to be wrong. But prove me wrong and tell me were they did their crimes? Because you are telling us that the OLPC has committed fraud.

But that has been your line from the start. Never go for the ball, always go after the man/woman. As you do not seem to understand the technology nor the education, you attack the people. Who needs evidence?

Winter

Off Topic because Irvin is again accusing Jepsen and Negroponte of fraud:

From Groklaw:
"Q: I understood that you have one or more patents in screen technology which are in the XO laptop. Are you taking those patents with you for licensing, or do they belong to OLPC? Can you clarify the patent situation for us?

Mary Lou Jepsen: When we eventually filed papers to make the OLPC 501c6 real, we also then started hiring (in early 2006). I then assigned the inventions that I had both already made and would make to OLPC. Pixel Qi -- my new company -- is now licensing my inventions from OLPC. This isn't an OLPC employee benefit, it's a deal I created with OLPC and Pixel Qi, and the benefit will go to OLPC and to the children of the world, lowering the price of the laptops, and thus allowing more kids to get laptops.
"
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080107182525297

So, Irvin, if you have evidence of fraud, please share them with us, else you are just producing libel (which can be prosecuted).

Winter

Winter wrote:

"The press coverage (for the XO) is also not that bad...My experience is that if it (any critcism of OLPC) is printed in a newspaper, it is bound to be wrong."

Need we say more?

The rest of your posts are too infantile and equally lacking in intellectual integrity to merit much comment, so I'll let you have the last word. Go and try to cover the sun with your pinkie. I'll be happy to continue reporting the facts. People are free to reach their own conclusions based on the available evidence.

@Irvin:
"The rest of your posts are too infantile and equally lacking in intellectual integrity to merit much comment, so I'll let you have the last word."

Name calling again?

Never evidence, always insults.

Winter

In the Fortune quote NN implies that Oscar Becerra Tresierra is Minister of Education for Peru. He is not, as Eduardo Villanueva remarked to me. Jose Antonio CHANG Escobedo is.

Wayan, it might productive to limit blog comments to one per day per person. I visit this site less because of the personal spats.

@Irvin

While I agree with you on many of you points (but not all). You style is not going to win people over. You sound like a troll, not a person interested in honest exchange of ideas.

The MediaLab has always been 90% hype. When it tried to expand to places that are not impressed by the MIT name and New York Times articles, the MediaLabs failed quickly. The secrecy is part of the hype machine, necessary to keep people from focusing on the real details of technology/R&D/products.

@everyone:

This article backs up Irvin's ideas, OLPC sales to Peru are based on a personal connection to someone who have been in the MIT MediaLab Matrix (in the 90's) and swallowed the Blue Pill. They just need to get Bolivian President Juan Evo Morales Ayma up to Boston and get the pill in his belly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redpill

The most exciting thing to come out of MIT in computers recently is Roofnet -- and it was in the MIT CSAIL (Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory). They have made a mesh networking node that costs $50.

http://meraki.com/oursolution/hardware/

The OLPC XO does not use this type of mesh networking. This may be because Meraki's network requires a hosted service to figure out and update the routing tables (it is not a fully distributed system).

Call me crazy, but a bunch of positive documents about a pilot project (and an education plan) would come in really handy right now...

You have to love Irvin's blatant disregard for the truth. He remixes two unrelated quotes by Winter:

"The press coverage is also not that bad. Intel didn't even show up at Davos to show off their Classmates, but Negroponte was there."

and (regarding the false "news" by Zdnet that Mary Lou Lepsen got royalty-free patent rights):

"My experience is that if it is printed in a newspaper, it is bound to be wrong."

and creates this beauty of a quote:

"The press coverage (for the XO) is also not that bad...My experience is that if it (any critcism of OLPC) is printed in a newspaper, it is bound to be wrong."

Quite a craftsman with the words!

Eduardo Silva wrote:

"You have to love Irvin's blatant disregard for the truth. He remixes two unrelated quotes by Winter"

The two quotes have a common denominator: it is true only if agrees with Winter's position.

The first quote:

"The press coverage is also not that bad" (referring to the XO & OLPC's press coverage).

At this moment the press is "truthful". Now, let's look at the second quote (referring to the New York Times' coverage)

"My experience is that if it is printed in a newspaper, it is bound to be wrong."

At this moment, the press is not very "truthful".

When do we believe Winter? And, if it is true that "if it is printed in a newspaper, it is bound to be wrong.", I wonder where he is getting his "accurate" info from?

That said, I understand your position, given that you have a vested interest in Prof Negroiponte "succeeding", even if that means that poor countries like your own Peru will suffer: you stand to financially profit from the enterprise. You're one of the people pushing it in Peru:

http://backd.com/2007/06/30/presentacion-del-proyecto-olpc-y-la-laptop-xo-en-peru

@Nathan

"You style is not going to win people over. You sound like a troll, not a person interested in honest exchange of ideas."

That's ok with me, Nathan. I'm not in this for popularity. I'm here to express my ideas in a clear, direct manner. I post links to my sources, express my opinion and hope that others will consider the evidence, do their own investigation and will reach their own conclusion. That's what real dialog is about.

I'm glad to know that, in spite of the noise that my regular opponents create around every one of my posts, you (and hopefully others) can here a faint voice of reason. That's very good.

Thanks for reference.

Irvin,
again you jump into the wrong conclusions, I am not the person referred to in that link (I'm Portuguese).

And It's obvious that both he and other people from OLPC have every right to contribute to discussions about their project.

Regarding your quotes juggling, the first quote was regarding opinions on the press about the OLPC, "The press coverage is also not that bad", the second, _facts_ stated on the press about Mary Lou Jepsen, "if it is printed in a newspaper, it is bound to be wrong", and that is why they don't contradict.

Me, Eduardo _H._ Silva, wiki.laptop.org/go/User:HoboPrimate , and Eduardo Silva, wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Edsiper

Since this post started out talking about connections. Check this out:

http://lwn.net/Articles/267113/

And I hope you won't go searching for my complete name, otherwise you'll think that I live in Florida, and am a Sex offender (2nd result in google) ;-)

The discussion is becoming appallingly bad...

But to clarify, as Steve Cisler has already mentioned: Oscar Becerra is not Peru's minister of education. He worked at the university run (and property of) Peru's current Education Minister, Luis Chang Escobedo. He wasn't visibly involved in the project at the beginning, and he started to work at the ministry well after the decision to buy the XOs had been taken. This doesn't mean he wasn't involved in the decision before he actually started working, but I don't know that for sure.

Oscar Becerra has worked for a long time with computers and education, as a rep for IBM in the 1990 and afterwards as a consultant. He is the most elaborate and able speaker for the project in Peru, though he doesn't have a big public profile mostly because the project itself has appeared mostly as press statements and factual reports and little in-depth analysis. Mr. Chang has been very restrained with his statements, giving most of them under very controlled circumstances (public speeches and photo-ops) and only twice, as far as I remember, facing interviews about the issue, even if it got lost in the middle of other things of more pressing interest, like a teachers' strike or the new Teachers Employment Act.

It may be useful to clarify this, too: the Peruvian case right now is very unusual, since normally the Ministry of Education has a very diverse group of consultants and officials drafting policy, but since the beginning of Mr. Alan García's presidency in 2006, this ministry has been in the hands of Mr. Chang, who gave to Mr. García the opportunity to run a Government Graduate School back in 2002/2003 (something of a bad joke considering that Mr. García first administration was amazingly bad). Mr. Chang has run the ministry without any participation in policy drafting by the governing party, or almost anyone outside the immediate circle of associates from his university (Universidad de San Martín de Porres). This particular project is the flagship of Mr. Chang's administration and is very close to his heart, since his background is in computer sciences and his University has invested a lot in establishing credentials of a technology-savvy one.

And I have not one more factual news item from my country right now, so don't ask me about the delivery of the machines, cause I don't know, nor will try to learn about it for the coming weeks (I'll be out of the loop completely).

@Irvin:
"I'm not in this for popularity. I'm here to express my ideas in a clear, direct manner. I post links to my sources, express my opinion and hope that others will consider the evidence, do their own investigation and will reach their own conclusion. That's what real dialog is about."

It seems I have misunderstood you completely.

So I ask you, why not write up a post in which you describe your ideas in a coherent manner?

I am sure Wayan would love to publish it on OLPCnews. You can also add links to crucial evidence and will remain visible for everyone to see. Because I think you are certain that you can prove the OLPC a big, unqualified failure from the start. But somehow, the message doesn't come across.

The comments you post are always short and therefor fragmented. I, personally, got the impression from your posts that you neither knew nor cared about technology, education, nor economical development. But I would love to be proven wrong on this matter.

So if you really have evidence that Negroponte and Jepsen defrauded the OLPC, please show it to us. If you know why all my posts and comments are wrong, please explain so I can advance my understanding.

But I must support Nathan: Name calling and insults don't really work to install convidence in your reasoning. If you write:
"The rest of your posts are too infantile and equally lacking in intellectual integrity to merit much comment" and you refer to Negroponte as "the mad professor" I think I am excused to consider you a troll.

But again, write down your ideas and send them to Wayan. I am sure we will all be welcoming the discussion. Maybe you succeed and can finally convince us all that Negroponte is a fraud and the OLPC a big failure that should never have been started. (or whatever it is you really believe)

Winter

Winter wrote:

"So I ask you, why not write up a post in which you describe your ideas in a coherent manner?"

I have done so on numerous occasions, but I'll repeat some of the issues any impartial observer would have with the XO, the OLPC Project:

1. The OLPC Project is a failure so far.
2. The XO is product far from finished, far from being ready for commercial release.

Now, why is the OLPC Project a failure?

Because the majority of the initial goals have not been achieved and Negroponte has been forced to implement emergency programs (G1G1) to try to save it. The following is a brief list of goals not met:

1. No orders in the millions - MAJOR GOAL
2. No Classroom Implementation plan
3. No Human Power Generator (crank, yoyo or otherwise)= MAJOR GOAL
4. No battery life measured in days, not hours - MAJOR GOAL
5. Not-fully functional mesh network - the Mongolia pilot project has shown that there is a lot of work to be done - MAJOR GOAL
6. Price gone up instead of down (from $100 to $200, instead of the projected $50) - MAJOR GOAL

At this point, it is pretty obvious that there are MAJOR problems with the OLPC Project - and it is not just my opinion; most INDEPENDENT XO reviews are pretty grim:

1. Incredibly slow to start
2. Buggy software
3. Defective keyboard ("sticky" keys)
4. No multimedia capability
5. No printing capability
6. Prone to crashes
7. Un-conventional file system
8. Extremely slow processor
9. No localized educational software, etc. etc.

About the only feature getting consistently high marks is the screen. The rest is a real mess. Can it get better? I don't know. But that's the way it is right now.

Am I against OLPC for some personal, business or other reason?

Absolutely not. I'm COMPLETELY AGAINST poor nations spending their very scarce education resources on un-proven "solutions" like the one proposed by OLPC. I call it unproven because the product or its capability has not been tested long enough for interested parties to make an informed purchasing decision: the XO still needs a lot of work and the required pilot projects (much abhorred by Prof Negroponte) are just reluctantly beginning.

My position is very simple: countries and entities interested in OLPC should wait until Prof. Negroponte and Co. make a very solid case (through well-documented, verifiable studies) that the XO can be of benefit to its intended user base. So far, everything is in the air, but things could change = for better or worse - in the future.

There you go...

@Irvin:
"I have done so on numerous occasions, but I'll repeat some of the issues any impartial observer would have with the XO, the OLPC Project:"

Just ask Wayan to post this comment.

That way it will get the attention of everyone.

Winter

@all STOP FEEDING IRVIN. This guy seems to be hijacking every comment section on a personal rant on his criticisms on olpc. If he wants to say something he can write an article.

@wayan:
So the minister of education in chile was a pupil of Seymour Papert and sent many peruvians to MIT to help bring new education ideas to chile. I interpret this as chile having a very forward thinking minister.

Alexander wrote:

"@all STOP FEEDING IRVIN. This guy seems to be hijacking every comment section on a personal rant on his criticisms on olpc. If he wants to say something he can write an article."

My posts are not rants and they are not personal. They are objective assessments of the current status of the OLPC Project, and serve the purpose of initiating meaningful debate.

There is little reason to silence legitimate, objective and well-documented criticsm. Sweeping issues under the rug doesn't help the OLPC Project, btw.

@Irvin:
"My posts are not rants and they are not personal. They are objective assessments of the current status of the OLPC Project, and serve the purpose of initiating meaningful debate."

But Alexander is right that they tend to be highly Off Topic. You could look up the relevant article and post your comments there. But you often chose to post the same subject at EVERY article.

Winter

Winter wrote:
"But you often chose to post the same subject at EVERY article."

Not even with the same frequency you accuse Intel of whatever fancies your imagination...

In any case, I'm free to express my opinion. I'm sorry you guys are so upset about it, but there is nothing that can be done. We are in the USA, where freedom of speech is valued. Ours is the greatest country on earth for that reason, among many others.

@Irvin:
"In any case, I'm free to express my opinion."
"We are in the USA, where freedom of speech is valued."

If this was my blog, I would explain to you why you are completely wrong on this account. Both legally and technically.

Winter

alexandre van de sande wrote:

> So the minister of education in chile was a pupil of Seymour Papert and sent many peruvians to MIT to help bring new education ideas to chile. I interpret this as chile having a very forward thinking minister.

You can interpret it as you see fit but one conclusion that's difficult to ignore is that in order for the OLPC foundation to make a sale there's got to be a pre-existing relationship that biases someone in a position of authority in favor of the XO.

If that's what it takes to sell XOs it hardly speaks well of some aspect of the entire operation whether it's hardware, software, sales, manufacture, post-sales support or some combination. It's not reasonable to expect Dr. Negroponte to have a personal relationship with enough ministers of education to make the XO a success and, in fact, speaks very poorly of the perceived value of the project.

The XO won't succeed due to its association with Dr. Negroponte any more then Microsoft succeeded due to its association with Bill Gates. Quite the opposite.

Winter wrote:

"If this was my blog, I would explain to you why you are completely wrong on this account. Both legally and technically."

Most likely, your "explanation" would miss the mark. You are not known for being objective or even truthful when it comes to OLPC.

In any case, I think we should just agree to disagree for now. There are more interesting topics to discuss. Thank you for your input.

:-)

@Allen:
"You can interpret it as you see fit but one conclusion that's difficult to ignore is that in order for the OLPC foundation to make a sale there's got to be a pre-existing relationship that biases someone in a position of authority in favor of the XO."

As I posted above, I am afraid that is how things are sold to governments.

As I understood it, Intel sold their Classmates by promising factories and all kind of extras like free power generators, internet, and training (which, in general, is a LEGITIMATE sales technique that benefits the people). I have yet to see an example of a govenrment that just buys the Classmate without regard of the perks, just because it is the best value for money.

MS and Intel CEOs do not travel around the world for nothing. To get a sale through in Rumania, India, or China, Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer will turn up in person frequently.

I do not like it when governments buy bad stuff to support specific producers. But it happens all to often.

If a sale of the Classmate needs personal intervention of Intel bosses, why complain when it needs personal contacts with NEgroponte?

Winter

> If a sale of the Classmate needs personal intervention of Intel bosses, why complain when it needs personal contacts with NEgroponte?

Because the XO has been touted as being above such vulgar considerations as sales campaigns. Remember the "buy a million or get the eff out of line" quote? Now it's being sold in a manner that's getting closer and closer to the way all other laptops are sold.

If it isn't above such vulgar considerations then it's a laptop.

What's really irritating about all this "it's about education" razzle-dazzle is that as "just" a laptop it's a phenomenal accomplishment. I would've given pretty good odds that even with Dr. Negroponte involved the notion that there'd be production lines pumping out XOs sometime in the reasonably near future it was unreasonable. Wrong.

@Allen:
"What's really irritating about all this "it's about education" razzle-dazzle is that as "just" a laptop it's a phenomenal accomplishment."

Why do you think educational reform is sold differently from laptops or candles?

Educational software, books and other sellable aspects are sold like pencils and candles.

As I said, I would like things to be different. But others are selling their "educational" laptops the hard way and I cannot expect the OLPC to be willing to lose just for a double standard.

Winter

Because products like laptops and candles don't threaten the status quo. That's why you don't sell revolutions, you incite them.

Real revolutions have a momentum that's no respecter of that status quo which is why there was a great deal of resistance some decades ago to the introduction of computers in education. Teachers worried that what computers had done to other industries, mass layoffs, would happen to them. That they'd be replaced by computers.

A couple of decades on, teachers aren't worried about being replaced by computers. The revolution didn't happen.

But it will, right?

What do you think post-revolution education is going to look like? Teachers in classrooms filled with kids and computers? Administrators in their offices deciding the same sorts of budget, manpower, scheduling and policy questions they're deciding today?

In other words, do you suppose the post-revolution education system will look pretty much like the pre-revolution education system but with a lot more computers?

If that's the misconception your laboring under you might want to read a bit of history. Revolutions are messy, unpleasant and no respecter of the status quo. For people who are dependent on or support the status quo revolutions are most unwelcome and quite often downright dangerous.

That's why the XO is "just" a laptop and not an education revolution. If the XO were an education revolution then the only ministers of education who'd be interested in purchasing it would be those without political aspirations and with a great deal of confidence. They exist of course but I sincerely doubt that they're in the majority.

@Allen:
"In other words, do you suppose the post-revolution education system will look pretty much like the pre-revolution education system but with a lot more computers?"

I agree almost completely with your view about the computer revolution in education. I would actually go further.

At the moment, the anticipation is that the computers will enhance the status of the teachers. These teachers are not affraid about their job, as there is a gruweling shortage of teachers. The major problems are bad pay, low status and bad career prospects in education. They really hope the laptop will improve their job prospects.

There is no indication whatsoever that computers will replace teachers in the developing world. But better education generally leads to more pay. Some of that might come back to the schools and teachers.

Why ministers want to get involved?

I assume pure desperation. Real desperation. They all see how the small tigers have become rich, and China and India are following. They want too. But they simply lack the trained workforce to attract industry. And they simply have no idea, really no idea, how to improve education in the classical way. It simply did not work.

Therefore I am not surprised they jumped onto the OLPC marketting. But then, to get from ideas to funding is a very big step. And we see it is difficult to get the laptops into education.

Winter

@Winter
"promising factories and all kind of extras like free power generators, internet, and training (which, in general, is a LEGITIMATE sales technique that benefits the people). I have yet to see an example of a govenrment that just buys the Classmate without regard of the perks, just because it is the best value for money"

uh, OLPC or Classmate, without internet and training are both rather cute gadgets but not much more. Spent a while today trying to phone from the US a friend in Uruguay. He couldn't hear me, the quality of the line was so bad. Gave up after several attempts. That's the country that bought a zillion OLPCs. Tells everyone they have achieved 100% digital telephony. Sure. I love them, but hardly trust they ever will get their act together, because they have too much invested in believing they made it already.

@Allen
"In other words, do you suppose the post-revolution education system will look pretty much like the pre-revolution education system but with a lot more computers?"

I actually believe so. The establishment will always act the same, church-based scientists condemning Galileo, secular-based scientists condemning evolution... Tsarists ordering you to love the Tsar, Bolsheviks ordering you to love Lenin... same same. Yes, revolutions are messy, but somehow the teacher establishment reassembles to keep handing Fs.

@Winter
"And they simply have no idea, really no idea, how to improve education in the classical way. It simply did not work."

hear, hear

Your Welcome.